Curse

Luddendorf · Feb 29, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

So I come back to this game after a hiatus since late 06/early 07 and am casually playing pve with a friend (thus 6 heros). Of course casually doesn't mean not wanting to find and use the most efficient builds for it but there is a rather significant information gap here. I have factions and nightfall and am not getting eye of the north but know little of the game currently.

Disclaimer: If you are going to recommend to me some version of the stance tank echo firestorm nuker orison monk whatever terrible version of this build that is popular now don't bother. That kind of waste of time/noobproof garbage is not what I'm interested in. Well nuking might be good now, who knows. But I sure know that orison monks and stance tanks without 16 weapon mastery are still rubbish.

Ideally I'd like to rely upon only one monk (me; friend is paragon). Healer's boon seems to make this viable, along with a healthy dose of prot. Are there any areas in any of these games where a 2nd monk would be strictly better than a mixed offensive support guy? I've heard stuff about broken pve skills like save yourselves..and don't really want to touch that.

The old combo of pve ownage was double orders+minions+a billion warriors. Although one monk couldn't handle everything so you couldn't quite iway it. Now that seems to be a bit more complicated, considering there are 3 new physical classes that I don't understand much of. But who knows, maybe the game has shifted upside down and mesmers are good outside of bosses and 4 man areas. Or hero a.i on physicals is bad and great on casters.

Fill me in! What's the ideal way to go? Where does the best damage come from? What off-monk support is most efficient? What of these things does the hero a.i suck at and what is it good at? (if anything)

CandyPrince · Feb 29, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I appears that you are an expert therefore need no help at all why ask?

Tyla · Feb 29, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Sabway.
And Ursan.

Cheapest and fastest way, although boring if you're running Ursan and you don't like buttonmashing until your fingers snap.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 29, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

You're a monk and he's a Paragon?
This can't get easier.

For your friend, have him run the so-called 'imbagon' -
"Save Yourselves!" / "There's Nothing to Fear!" / Focused Anger / Aggressive Refrain / "For Great Justice!" / Vicious Attack / Spear of Lightning (or whatever 2 attack skills he likes) / optional - res or something

For yourself, either a Healer's Boon monk or a WoH hybrid work well - just make sure to keep your friend clean of any hexes or conditions that might impair his attacks, as he is pretty much the keystone of the team.

Then between you, run the 3-necro build, so called 'Sabway'

The rest of your party should be physical attackers - you've got 3 guys left, I'd recommend 2 Paragons (1 Cruel Spear with Command offensive buffs, the other some Motivation skills to support the party and spear attacks to kill shit), and the last guy is whatever - I'd say a Broad Head Arrow ranger, for caster shutdown.

Edit: though if you don't want to touch PvE skills, you could always bring "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields Up!" on your friend's para to relieve pressure.

Blu · Feb 29, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Check out Ractoth's paragon hero post in the Hero section it works well also.

AR+Splinter Weapon + Orders, etc. is pretty godly in terms of physicals.

I guess Mind Blast/Rodgorts Eles are "meta" for nuking in a sense.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 29, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

oh, long story short (and for the +1) - when it comes to PvE, Paragons and Necromancers are the strongest classes. Paragons because they're imba, period; and Necros 'cuz of the strength of Curses and minion walls in PvE, as well as the infinite energy.

Coloneh · Feb 29, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

have your friend run this:
you run a hybrid bar that can switch between WoH/RC/divert depending on the area
your three heroes:
1. Rt or N/Rt with some channeling throwing out splinter weapon like a madman. ancestors is good to. something like the sabway bar should work well
2. BHA/epidemic ranger. you might have to micro epidemic.
3. optional. I would probably go with a MM to cover the frontline, jagges battery from sab's build would work well

Luddendorf · Feb 29, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by CandyPrince

I appears that you are an expert therefore need no help at all why ask?

I felt I understood the game (pve wise) in early 06. I played ta, ha, and gvg casually in random r100 teams till nightfall came out then quit cause of a busy life. Given that I have been essentially out of the game for well over a year and a half, a lot has changed that I cannot easily find out. I fail to see how realizing how stupid the stance tank/nuker/monk template is outside of braindead pugs makes me such an expert that I can't ask for advice.

Sabway seems interesting, though I found in the past that physicals>spiteful against most mobs because spiteful takes too long to be useful. Is that not the case in this hard mode feature or in harder areas of nightfall? Splinter weapon seems really really good wow thanks for pointing that one out.

Mindblast+rodgorts does seem to make eles worthwhile as both damage and support hybrids. But with mindblast depending on having more energy from mobs I would think it'd be tough for the ai to maintain? Or is the a.i that good that I can trust it to spam mindblast on the right targets while spamming high energy stuff as well?

Also, what does the dervish do efficiently? I can't really tell what would differentiate it from a warrior/barrage ranger at a cursory glance. I don't really know how physicals differentiate from each other in pve? It seems paragons are amazing as damage/support but I dunno how rangers/warriors/dervishes compare.

Anyway thanks for the help guys. Much appreciated!

Stormlord Alex · Feb 29, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luddendorf

Sabway seems interesting, though I found in the past that physicals>spiteful against most mobs because spiteful takes too long to be useful. Is that not the case in this hard mode feature or in harder areas of nightfall? Splinter weapon seems really really good wow thanks for pointing that one out.

Well, in HM Spiteful does more damage comparatively than other stuff - as mobs attack and activate skills much faster, SS damages at a faster rate; and armour-ignoring damage carries greater weighting given the silly high armour of foes.
However, the real money skills on the Curse guy are Barbs and Mark of Pain - which make your physicals and minions really crazy damage dealers - and Enfeebling Blood, which neuters the hefty physical damage very well.

Quote:

Mindblast+rodgorts does seem to make eles worthwhile as both damage and support hybrids. But with mindblast depending on having more energy from mobs I would think it'd be tough for the ai to maintain? Or is the a.i that good that I can trust it to spam mindblast on the right targets while spamming high energy stuff as well?

Meh. Mind Blast is really for human players - they can spec Heal Party or BFlash or similar for really strong situational support stuff and use it accordingly, and can keep their energy up with MB whilst still nuking with RI. Give the same bar to a hero, and he'll mash his Flash, Party, and Rodgort's indiscriminantely, and drain himself faster than MB can keep up. And when you bottom out with MB, you're screwed.

Also, some of the real fun skills for MB - PvE skills like the Ebon Vanguard Wards or the Norn shouts - can't be used by heroes. Which is a shame, because Great Dwarf Weapon is really insane on a guy with the energy to pump it out on all your physicals.

Quote:

Also, what does the dervish do efficiently? I can't really tell what would differentiate it from a warrior/barrage ranger at a cursory glance. I don't really know how physicals differentiate from each other in pve? It seems paragons are amazing as damage/support but I dunno how rangers/warriors/dervishes compare.

Dervishes, at their best, are about silly damage. The scythe stings like a son of a bitch, and Lyssa and Melandru avatars with appropriate attack skills hurt, a lot - especially given the natural AoE on the scythe.

However, AI dervs make very good Orders spammers - Dark Fury and Order of Pain, fueled by Mysticism and combined with Wind Prayers for a hybrid damage buffer/support healer.

Warriors... depend on the weapon.
The pinnacle of Swords is Dragon Slash, insane single-target DPS combined with "Save Yourselves!" spam for party defense, and Brawling Headbutt for a single-target knock lock.
Axes, are simply huge damage - without the insane adrenaline engine of DSlash, but have nasty axe attacks for, essentially, silly damage - AoE too, with Triple Chop/Whirlwind Attack/Cyclone Axe spam.
And hammers... are disruption, with damage. Get a mob, hit it with Earthshaker, then Crude Swing and Whirlwind Attack when they're down, and you can Earthshaker again to sit the group on their asses again. Beautiful.

Unfortunately, Heroes suck at playing melee - they screw up attack chains, fail at movement, can't use stances to save their lives, and don't get the sweet PvE skills that make them so awesome.

Rangers... are disruption, mostly - Broad Head Arrow shuts down bosses/monks, and skilled use of Distracting and Savage can stop key casts. Also, Volley + Splinter Weapon is fairly good for softening groups. AI has got good reflexes, so is ok at ranger, though you'll need to manually target Broadhead every now and then.

Then Paragons... warrior damage at range and powerful, unstrippable defense or offensive support. With adequate adrenaline shouts, the AI can spam as much as they want without running dry, and positioning and movement are a non-issue at range. The AI really do make great paragons.

randomperson · Mar 01, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Just take the 3 hero paragons (if you really refuse to buy EotN and get a 4th), an orders guy, and then an SS with splinter/ancestor's rage and a minion bomber.

Oh and not having the paragon player run an imbagon bar is just gimping your team.

Koross · Mar 01, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

For your friend, have him run the so-called 'imbagon' -
"Save Yourselves!" / "There's Nothing to Fear!" / Focused Anger / Aggressive Refrain / "For Great Justice!" / Vicious Attack / Spear of Lightning (or whatever 2 attack skills he likes) / optional - res or something.

LoL. Imbagon ...

Is that the official name you are giving for that build?

Racthoh · Mar 01, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Spiteful Spirit is great at dealing damage against the smallest threat of the group.

Quote:

I felt I understood the game (pve wise) in early 06.

Quote:

The old combo of pve ownage was double orders+minions+a billion warriors

Well you can't use double orders anymore, and minions are as useful as Spiteful Spirit. Using warriors though is still a pretty awesome strategy, just add a paragon or two into the mix. That's basically all that has changed.

Quote:

LoL. Imbagon ...

Is that the official name you are giving for that build?

That build would qualify for imbagon, this build here:

Quote:

Leadership: 16
Motivation: 13
Spear Masty: Leftovers

Is more like trashagon or crapagon.

llsektorll · Mar 01, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Ursans Blessing..... kthanksbye

Stormlord Alex · Mar 01, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

Ursans Blessing..... kthanksbye

Ursan isn't nearly as attractive when you've only got 2 real players, one of whom is a Paragon

llsektorll · Mar 01, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Ursan isn't nearly as attractive when you've only got 2 real players, one of whom is a Paragon

u kidding me?....

im set as ursan trapper and just trap bomb or ursan my way through with my 2 jagged bombers... ursan defensive capabilities are very good with aoe knockdowns for monks to catch up on heals and aoe weakness shout that also adds dmg buffs to minions (haven't tested it)

Stormlord Alex · Mar 01, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

ursan defensive capabilities are very good with aoe knockdowns for monks to catch up on heals and aoe weakness shout that also adds dmg buffs to minions (haven't tested it)

The defensive capabilities of a Paragon are much stronger, and overall synergizes better with a necro-heavy AI team. Ursan is good, but not the be-all and end-all of builds - especially when we're talking about Paragons.

llsektorll · Mar 01, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The defensive capabilities of a Paragon are much stronger, and overall synergizes better with a necro-heavy AI team. Ursan is good, but not the be-all and end-all of builds - especially when we're talking about Paragons.

ofcourse defense of para is better... but when you are dishing out 100+ dmg every 3s armor ignoring... it just rocks

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 04, 2008, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Is more like trashagon or crapagon.

lol, you'd end up getting no points in Spear mastery XD Personally I go..

Leadership-12+4
Spear Mastery-9+1
Command-9

I take Anthem of Wearyness, for it's synergy with Spear of Fury and weakness. (I havn't gotten far enough to get a good rank in allegiance to go with another PvE skill [ESoH], or all three necros for Sabway)

You Look Grim · Mar 13, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

u kidding me?....

im set as ursan trapper and just trap bomb or ursan my way through with my 2 jagged bombers... ursan defensive capabilities are very good with aoe knockdowns for monks to catch up on heals and aoe weakness shout that also adds dmg buffs to minions (haven't tested it)

in HM, the aoe KD's from ursan have saved me soo many times.
youre right, lets monk catch up on the heals.

arsie · Mar 13, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Haha, two players right? Half Racthoh's Paragons and half Sab's Necromancers, and dash of Ursan's Blessing. The only thing you're missing is interrupts, but who needs interrupts when you won't die and kill really fast.